How do you close Runway 31 so All Traffic Flies the IGS?

Hello folks, and thank you for the wonderfully designed and rendered scenery.

One thing that kind of bothers me with FlyTampa's Kai Tak scenery is the fact that my AI traffic will not fly the IGS 13 approach into Kai Tak unless it is a day that is extremely cloudy and hazy all around. I used to use the 9Dragons Kai Tak Scenery, and they had several different afcad scenarios available such as AF2_9Dragons_Rwy31Closed.bgl and others, so that the AI traffic would always fly the great IGS approach, regardless of weather and wind patterns.

I have read in previous posts of this support forum that the approach afcads are the same as the ones the 9Dragons developer put in, but are re-named. Is it possible for me to re-name the AF2_9Dragons_Rwy31Closed.bgl to af2_VHHX.bgl, and have the AI always fly the IGS approach?

Thanks for your help.

~ Cheers, Steve.

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Thanks Paavo

I was about to link the same post

I have read in previous posts of this support forum that the approach afcads are the same as the ones the 9Dragons developer put in, but are re-named. Is it possible for me to re-name the AF2_9Dragons_Rwy31Closed.bgl to af2_VHHX.bgl, and have the AI always fly the IGS approach?

Contrary to popular belief none of the approach code and AFCAD's are the same between 9Dragons and FlyTampa. You cannot use one from one scenery and add it to another scenery.

If you try and use 9Dragons AFCAD and approach files the ground behavior and Approach code for both the User and AI Plane will become distorted /corrupt. Also there are elevation differences that will cause contact of wheels to be different when rolling along the textures.

that was the first thing i did when i installed the sceneries LOL close rwy 31

Here is the simple way:

1 Use real world weather, 13 is almost always the active runway.
2. If you don't want to use real weather, set the winds before you load a flight so 13 is active

I downloaded Martin's replacement Afcad for VHHX, I will test later to see if Runway 13 will always be in use. Perhaps future updates can include more than one Afcad file for users wanting different approaches.

~ Cheers, Steve.

Edit: Martin's replacement Afcad does not work. I would like to have a Runway 31 Closed afcad, if possible. Can this be done?

I downloaded Martin's replacement Afcad for VHHX, I will test later to see if Runway 13 will always be in use. Perhaps future updates can include more than one Afcad file for users wanting different approaches.

~ Cheers, Steve.

Edit: Martin's replacement Afcad does not work. I would like to have a Runway 31 Closed afcad, if possible. Can this be done?

You can never close runway 31 completely in either FS9 or the FSX version. MS uses a scoring system that determines which runway end is the active.

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Allright, then how did 9Dragons manage it?

When I inserted their AF2_Runway31_Closed.bgl, any day, any time, any weather, all AI aircraft landed with the IGS 13 approach.

Your quote there is simply false.

Allright, then how did 9Dragons manage it?

When I inserted their AF2_Runway31_Closed.bgl, any day, any time, any weather, all AI aircraft landed with the IGS 13 approach.

Your quote there is simply false.

You'll have to wait for Jim Vile, that is his quote and not mine. Did you read his entire post in that link ?

[martin[flytampa]]

I looked at 9Dragon's AF2_9D_VHHX_31Closed.bgl

All I can see is runway 31 properties for edited and closed for landings and takeoff Checkmarked. 31 Start location as well as ILS is present.

Make sure you are not loading saved flights but create a new one a VHHX for the Afcad changes to kick in.

Allright, I'd like to edit the FlyTampa VHHX afcad to check-box the close for takeoff and landings at runway 31. Can I get the name of this program off of you?



~ Cheers, Steve.

[martin[flytampa]]

Afcad 2.11

http://library.avsim.net/esearch.php?DL ... CatID=root

Note that in the replacement Afcad posted above I already applied the change of checkmarking these 2 boxes.

Just to confirm, that is exactly what I did and just created a couple of different AFCADs base on which runway I wanted open. Saved them with different, descriptive names. Simple yet effective.

Clutch
9Dragons

Note that in the replacement Afcad posted above I already applied the change of checkmarking these 2 boxes.

When I checked the Runway Properties of your modified VHHX afcad, none of the boxes were checked. I re-checked them, started up FS, and now all the AI traffic fly the IGS approach. You might want to check your upload, Martin. But thanks for all the information!

~ Cheers, Steve.

jvile wrote:
You can never close runway 31 completely in either FS9 or the FSX version. MS uses a scoring system that determines which runway end is the active.

Thank you paavo for the quote but it appears that some seem to think that checking some check marks in AFCAD is going to close runway 31 for good.

Gentlemen

Look at the 2 pictures and I will explain. Sorry for the blurries, this is an old Laptop I am working with today for testing other issues.
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We don't want to mislead Users here because on any certain day ATC can and will reopen RWY 31 like my pictures show. Now I know how to set winds and weather prior to loading any AI and how saved flights work.

I have closed RWY 31 with AFCAD by placing 2 check marks in the proper boxes but as you can see by the pictures RWY 31 is the active and planes are taking off and landing as per the MS FS9 SDK TrafficToolbox.dll.

WHY?

Because I pushed the weather engine far enough that ATC says that is enough. ATC says 'I am not going to continue to force planes to arrive on RWY 13 if the weather and winds are unsafe for using RWY 13.

On any given day when weather is severe clear and winds calm (less then 14 kts. ATC will honor the 2 checkmarks applied in the AFCAD and force all Planes to only use RWY 13.

That is because the scoring code embedded into the ATC system for runway selection is low enough to create an illusion that RWY 31 no longer exist in the in-game.

A runway in FS9/FSX does not have 2 seperate ends like a runway in real world. There is only 1 runway in FS and at Kai Tak and it is RWY 13. There is no RWY 31 and everything about FS works off the Coded runway number 13. In fact when you look at all the XML code properties for runways you will never see the Reciprocal end of a runway expressed as a number.

<Runway
lat="22.3148404061794"
lon="114.204655140638"
alt="0.0F"
surface="CONCRETE"
heading="133.600006103516"
length="11116.27F"
width="200.0F"
number="13"
designator="NONE"
patternAltitude="1000.0F"
primaryTakeoff="YES"
primaryLanding="YES"
primaryPattern="RIGHT"
secondaryTakeoff="NO"
secondaryLanding="NO"
secondaryPattern="LEFT">

RWY 31 is the secondary runway end to the primary end which is expressed as a number 13.

Takeoff and landing on any end of a runway is seperated into 2 codes and arrival (landing) always wins with a higher score. There is a combination of elements and attributes that will lower the score so a runway is not selected by ATC but by only checking the 2 boxes in AFCAD (FS9) ADE (FSX) you only lower the score when the combination is based on clear weather and light and varible winds. Light and varible to FS is less then 14 kts.

So many think RWY 31 is closed because they never push the weather envelope like some other users might do. That means one User says RWY 31 is closed and another User comes back and says the 2 checkmarks in my AFCAD did not close my RWY 31. At that point it depends on the scoring process that will differ between the 2 user's Kai Tak and how they have a certain unseen combination.

I will say it one more time.

Under the current codes written for FT's Kai Tak you cannot close runway 31 completely. Placing 2 checkmarks in the AFCAD is not a simple yet effective way to close RWY 31 unless you fly in clear weather and low winds all the time (see my pictures).

I don't care who's Kai Tak you have or have had in the past or what someone has told you, RWY 31 cannot be closed when certain conditions prevail unless I add some additional code.


The following is the basic foundation formula FS is using minus the additional weather engine for visiblity. The weather engine also holds the key elements for my approach code to runway 13 and runway 31 and generates a much higher scoring value.

When the wind is 0, FS9/FSX uses a default windspeed that you do not see of 0.001 knots to score the groups.

Score = 0
If runway length > 70% of longest runway at airport -> Score += 50
Score += tailwind or headwind (tailwind < 0 and headwind > 0)
If (unknown 'runway group' flag) Score += 10
Score -= crosswind
If (runway landing==yes) -> Score += 100
If (runway takeoff==yes) -> Score += 100
The score for the runway gets multiplied by 10000

A group is scored by it's baserunway. Now if that runway is the 'primary end' of a runway, the group will get 100 extra points if 'primaryTakeOff' is true and it will also get 100 extra points if 'primaryLanding' is true.

Yet, when the base runway is the 'secondary' end, the group will get 100 extra points if 'secondaryTakeOff' is true but it will also get 100 extra points if 'secondaryLanding' is true.

The call that checks the 'landing' flag does have a branch for primary and secondary, but unlike the 'takeoff' variant, both branches look at the same flag.

Many Airports including Kai Tak is not all about flying the heavy iron into and out of. Winds are one of the most important scoring aspects. Do any of you think that ATC is going to keep RWY 31 closed if winds pickup in real world weather to 40 or 60 kts and heading of 318? How would I ever be able to takeoff from kai Tak with RWY 31 closed and only RWY 13 with a 60 kt tailwind in my J3 Cub. Even when ATC reopens RWY 31 the Cub will leave the ground with minimal roll and fly backwards. ATC in FS9/FSX is trying to use some common sense in its code.

So many planes are coded based on type engine to help when weather has gone bad and ATC also has to intervene because you closed RWY 31 with some checkmarks.

The FS9/FSX formula for type plane are listed in 6 flavours, based upon engine type.

------ Piston such as Cessna 172 or J3 Cub ------

if at least one proper engine # block defined -> 2500ft
else 4000ft

----- Jets such as B747 B777 B737 ---------

If no weights specified: returns 5000ft

Else:

value = ((empty_weight pounds - 10000) * 2000 / 90000 ) + 5000

if ( value > 7000 ) return 7000
if ( value < 5000 ) return 5000
else return value


------ No Engine ------

Only called for landing, for takeoff the message 'Call Towplane' is displayed. For landing returns 1000ft.


------ Helo-Turbine -------

Method not called for the Bell 208 for landing/take-off. If it would be called, it would return 4000ft.


----- Rocket ------

Returns 4000ft

Turboprop (Cessna Grand Caravan, Dash)

Returns 4000ft

The above Plane code is what allows me to open all 5 runways simutaneously at Atlanta rather then just the outside 2 parallels for arrivals. This code also works in conjunction with ATC and the weather engine so if I am crazy enough to try and takeoff in my J3 at Kai Tak at least ATC gives me a fighting chance. How? They reopen runway 31 when winds exceed a unsafe tailwind value for RWY 13 even though you think you closed it (the illusion).

Can we get the score to zero so RWY 31 is never selected by ATC regardless of weather and winds? YES. We got the threshold smooth so bare with us and between Martin and I we will get RWY 31 closed completely regardless of what weather and how you fly into Kai Tak (as an option).